Observatory, cryonic vault, and cave dwellings

[Neanderthal Man]

I was looking at various maps of the lunar surface and imaging different scenarios.

Shackleton Crater: A permanent scientific outpost on the rim with great solar power and possibly access to good resources. I've heard of this idea before and was really getting into it whilst looking at maps and data.

Looking at thermal maps of the south pole region and noticing many very cold and very stable regions. Liquid nitrogen temps. Outstanding options for observatory location (especially an IR telescope) and possibly in situ fabrication of mirrors (or so I've heard). Also - and this is just a weird thought that occurred to me at random - a cryonics vault for low-maintenance, long-term storage of bodies. Seems to satisfy the vacuum and < 70 K parameters. One unique lunar requirement would be very high protection from ionizing radiation since long-term storage would be intention. Hypothetically, our civilization could collapse and there could be doomsday and yet some far-future civilization could find the bodies stored in the vault. People entombed on the moon could be the pharaohs of our epoch. Might appeal to the eccentric billionaire club.

Finally, the tantalizing caves detected on the moon. Imagine a lava tube with a stable temperature approaching that of liquid water (apparently a possibility). Seal the entrance somehow and create a large, open habitat that can be filled with breathable air. In the loftier version of this fantasy I basically imagine the genesis cave from The Wrath of Khan. Not a small project obviously, but potentially the heart of a serious lunar presence, I think. Some lunar cave recon would be neat. I wonder if there are many projects in the works to find and explore lunar caves?

[Engineer817]

Hate to be a buzz kill, but you can't reanimate dead bodies into pharaohs or whatever you're thinking. their cells will expand when the bodies are frozen and then contract when thawed, that will weaken their structure completely. that means your neurons will be fried. if you did manage to reanimate some one, their brain would be that of a child. Though, you can always sell that. STEP RIGHT UP!!! FREEZE YOUR BODIES FOR THAT SECOND CHANCE AT LIFE YOU NEVER HAD. START ANEW AND BE WIPED OF ALL YOUR SINS AND BECOME PURIFIED AGAIN!!! Sounds like a bloody preacher selling baptisisms.
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[Neanderthal Man]

Hate to be a buzz kill, but you can't reanimate dead bodies into pharaohs or whatever you're thinking. their cells will expand when the bodies are frozen and then contract when thawed, that will weaken their structure completely. that means your neurons will be fried. if you did manage to reanimate some one, their brain would be that of a child. Though, you can always sell that. STEP RIGHT UP!!! FREEZE YOUR BODIES FOR THAT SECOND CHANCE AT LIFE YOU NEVER HAD. START ANEW AND BE WIPED OF ALL YOUR SINS AND BECOME PURIFIED AGAIN!!! Sounds like a bloody preacher selling baptisisms.
:cool:
I've not suggested that reanimation is plausible and I'm not a proponent of cryonics, but it exists and people pay money for it. I suppose a pale hope of being reanimated in a post-singularity future is comforting to some people. Cell damage is a risk and a problem, but I think the technology is better than you seem to realize. At least the problem of cell damage during freezing is much less of a problem now than it was in the '70s. But I would agree that reanimation is so dubious as to justify asking whether or not the industry itself is a scam. My only assertion here is that certain locations on the moon may be ideal for a cryonics vault of some kind. It is an admittedly frivolous idea, but I kind of like it. A moon vault that could remain stable for centuries or millenia without the requirement of human inputs and oversight would seemingly boost the credibility of the tech. It would still require "faith" in futuristic technology that may never exist. But really, I can understand the rationale that would take such a pitiful hope over absolutely no hope. My understanding is that quite a few people are in storage at this moment as severed, frozen heads. Now that's faith in technology. haha.

[Neanderthal Man]

Another lofty dream involves sending robots to the moon to manufacture mirrors and then over time lining a specially selected crater with relatively small mirrors to create the primary mirror of an epic reflecting telescope with an effective aperture measured in hectometers or even kilometers. The design would be completed by a component in synchronous orbit high above the center of the crater. Of course its possible field of view would be limited by its location, but the depths that it could plumb might make it worthwhile.

[Neanderthal Man]

Hate to be a buzz kill, but you can't reanimate dead bodies into pharaohs or whatever you're thinking.
Btw, when I said "People entombed on the moon could be the pharaohs of our epoch," I wasn't implying reanimation. Was King Tut reanimated? I only meant that bodies could be preserved for extraordinary lengths of time under certain conditions afforded by the moon. The analogy being that they might become interesting specimens to archaeologists many thousands of years from now.
But the possibility of such long timescales adds tremendous value to the hopes of cryonics enthusiasts. Imaging the I am terminally ill and contemplating cryonics I think that my main fear (and quite justified) would be that at some point in the unknown future my pod would suffer neglect and/or mechanical failure. The moon vault would be incredibly more secure in this regard. One might reasonable expect to be preserved for thousands, even tens of thousands of years. On these timescales, and assuming that the tissues were not too damaged during preservation (I know, a tall order), the hope that technology will eventually advance to a level capable of reanimating and repairing the body may not feel quite so absurd. The hope that they'll thaw your severed head and attach it to a new body would still strike me as a bit...deluded?

[JohnHunt]

Cryonics sort of gives me the creeps. Especially when it comes to severed heads. But running with the topic, if SpaceX could deliver 5,000 kg to the lunar surface for $250 million then that comes to $50,000/kg. If an average male masses 70kg and the head is 1/10th the mass of the body then that comes to $350,000 per capita (literally!). That's within the price range of many eccentric people.

Along side a lunar colony and BioPreserve, it would be a significantly better place to possibly "survive" not only one's personal death but the extinction on humanity. If you are frozen at Alcor yet an ecophage destroys the ecosphere, even if there is a self-sustaining colony off-Earth, within a year you would be "melting".

The argument is that it is not the actual cell viability which matters so much as if the neuro pattern is still visible even if neurons are fractured.

[Engineer817]

who the hell would want to pay enough for 50 acres of land just to have their head frozen? That's redicilious. but, I guess if you want to make a profit on it, we could ferry dead heads around to the south pole. On another note, we should consider when we have the base up and running to send out a small automated vessel to another star system that's rich in resources. this is an offshoot of the GECK project. it would go there, mine enough materials to build a 1g centrifugal base system(similar to what we see in halo) and then begin some type of cloning process. that would be the cheapest way that's know to extend life to the stars. the whole thing would have to be huge to fit the necessary equipment into it, but I'm sure it can be done. but as a side note ***NO FROZEN HEADS ON THIS PROJECT!!!*** I don't want an entry in the history books saying extending man to the stars and macabre heads to alpha centari in the same entry.
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[Rhyshaelkan]

Sex sells, creepy sells. Depends on the needs of the customer. There are many revenue streams that could make a lunar plans worthwhile.

I personally do not believe fusion will ever make more energy than it consumes. However if people are willing to pay exorbitant amounts for He3, then I will fill that demand. If an international community wishes to store large stocks of seeds in a frozen lunar bunker, and foots the bill, who am I to argue? If people want to store their bodies cryogenically, and foot the bill, who am I to argue? No one is getting hurt. Unlike the crime that follows drug cartels.

That also gets back to porn in space. I am not skiddish about such subjects, as long as no one is harmed. If it pays, I am all for it. I will wear the One Ring and master its power to achieve my ends, as long as no one is harmed :D

Selling our souls, or being sellouts? Do not look at it as such. What we intend to do takes money. If we offer extraterrestrial services and someone comes with a plan, it does not take a rocket scientist to chase down the methods with which it can be used and abused. On that basis we can refuse contracts that would cause us to "sell our souls."

[Neanderthal Man]

Antarctica isn't nearly cold enough for cryonics and maintaining a vacuum (or near vacuum) would still be an issue. :( According to the temp data I was looking at there are spots on the south pole of the moon that are stable at liquid nitrogen temps. That was the point. It provides pockets of stable natural environment which happen to match the requirements for cryonics. And actually long duration human space flight is probably the primary reason why I'm interested in such things, although admittedly cryonics isn't the way to go. I'd rather be in a state of hibernation and super slowed metabolism than frozen solid. haha. Oh, especially since we aren't even close to being capable of restoring a frozen person. :)

[Neanderthal Man]

Sex sells, creepy sells. Depends on the needs of the customer. There are many revenue streams that could make a lunar plans worthwhile.

I personally do not believe fusion will ever make more energy than it consumes. However if people are willing to pay exorbitant amounts for He3, then I will fill that demand. If an international community wishes to store large stocks of seeds in a frozen lunar bunker, and foots the bill, who am I to argue? If people want to store their bodies cryogenically, and foot the bill, who am I to argue? No one is getting hurt. Unlike the crime that follows drug cartels.

That also gets back to porn in space. I am not skiddish about such subjects, as long as no one is harmed. If it pays, I am all for it. I will wear the One Ring and master its power to achieve my ends, as long as no one is harmed :D

Selling our souls, or being sellouts? Do not look at it as such. What we intend to do takes money. If we offer extraterrestrial services and someone comes with a plan, it does not take a rocket scientist to chase down the methods with which it can be used and abused. On that basis we can refuse contracts that would cause us to "sell our souls."
I hear ya. Maybe this thread should be moved to the wild speculation board. I don't really mean to suggest including the above ideas in a serious colonization plan.

Edit: Well, observatories on the moon make a lot of sense to me. The epic reflector isn't feasible any time soon, but some amazing astronomy could be carried out on the moon and it is worth doing early on, in my opinion. Shackleton Crater may provide an ideal location for an infrared telescope, among other things.

You know, the frozen head thing is pretty disturbing, but the idea of being highly preserved and entombed on the moon is kind of growing on me. haha. ;)

[Engineer817]

This is getting interesting. Lunar porn? 0G porn? sounds like a seller. That is an off beat topic that brings up a question in the back of all our minds. has any one had sex in the ISS or the Russian space station? We may never know, but it would probably look like a snow globe before its over. also, when I said south pole, I meant the lunar south pole. Antarctica is only good for rumors of nazi bases, the setting for the "thing", and maybe some kind of maximum security prison deep in the ice. (and perhaps a temple with aliens crawling all over it). Moving on, if I die, I'd rather be cremated. I don't like the idea of being buried, having my head in a jar in Shackleton crater, or being shot out in space. but there are nut jobs willing to really pay some dough at the chance at ever lasting importance in some way or another.
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[Neanderthal Man]

Yikes! I have no comment on the lunar pimps! haha. Well, I do recall a NASA spokesman saying that space sex has not been tried but it has been talked about. haha. Have there been animal sex experiments in microgravity? I wonder what impact microgravity might have on embryology and fetal development...

Antarctica made me think of something fun. Some Antarctic fish produce a very interesting "anti-freeze" protein. I'm pretty sure I've heard about genetically modified tomatoes that were successfully made to produce that protein.
This is admittedly sci-fi but I imagine some kind of gene therapy could be developed for the purpose of synthesizing such a protein in the human body and when the levels are appropriate in the bloodstream and cell membranes the person (still alive) would be a hardy candidate for suspended animation or even cryonics. Why? The generic reasons, such as long-duration manned space flight; but also time travel of a sort. Suspended animation would be less risky than cryonics but would be limited. Say, for every ten years in suspended animation you'd effectively age a year or so. Cryonics would be complete stasis. I'm imagining that I'm a planetary scientist whose life's work involves an interstellar probe to a nearby planetary system. I might opt to hibernate (if decadal timescale) or go into deep freeze (for longer timescales) so that I could live to complete my work. Also, terminally ill people for whom there is no cure, or a very poor prognosis, might opt to undergo suspended animation or cryonics until an effective cure is developed. There might be any number of reasons why a person would want to in a sense time travel to the future. I might opt to do it simply to see what happens, out of curiosity. I'll sign a waver: in case of dystopian future I hereby authorize the use of my body as soylent green. ;)

I do like the idea of a future in which longevity is greatly increased and things like (effective and safe!) suspended animation and cryonics are considered normal. Existence across longer timescales would redefine human society in interesting ways. Greater foresight and thus more expansive ethos; but also broader prospects for interplanetary, and even interstellar existence.

P.S. There have apparently been suspended animation successes with animals (e.g., http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/01/20/1137553739997.html), but the prospect of having my blood drained and replaced with a saline solution and then back again sounds pretty barbaric. I would definitely want to see something like my antifreeze protein gene therapy idea (which I admit is probably a very naive idea that wouldn't work, but I still like the approach as compared with body fluid replacement). Future Homo sapiens may be genetically modified in such a way that primes them for suspended animation, radical life extension therapies, and cryonics. I wouldn't mind.

P.P.S. I really don't mind if this thread is moved to an off-topic place. When I made the thread I didn't quite expect it would be this wild.

[Rhyshaelkan]

Who knows what answers are out there. Space is a good place to find some of those answers too. If your research facility becomes contaminated, it can be flattened with a 10m asteroid, or nuked. Bye bye rogue robots, virulent strains of disease, and mutant animal crossbreeds IN SPAAAAAACE!