Building Our Own (Mock-up) Robotic Lunar Base

[JohnHunt]

I think that I have just come up with a practical way to energize the public (and shame the policy makers) into making Sustainable Space Development (SSD) a priority.

How about we each construct a mock-up of one of the pieces of equipment necessary for an SSD scenario. Then, these components are transported to certain schools throughout the US where "experts" are present to explain to the kids about space devolpment while promoting the idea of a specific SSD plan. Not only would it inspire kids towards science careers but it could also easily gain local TV coverage which could advertise the fact that there is an inexpensive plan for SSD and, hopefully, people would visit a website which would give more information. Hopefully by raising awareness of a feasible plan, eventually it would garner the type of moral and financial support which SSD needs.

The equipment would need to be able to be transported and so some items are so large that they would either need to be inflatable or could be broken down.

Mock-up Techniques:
- Maybe gray tarp sprayed with an air gun to simulate lunar regolith.
- Maybe fiberglass craters sprayed in the same manner.
- Inflatable body of rocket.
- Fiberglass structures split to aid compact packing.
- Painted cardboard structures which can be unfolded and attached to construct a realistic equivalent.
- Wearable robonaut suit.
- CCTV telepresence and acted speed-of-light time delay.
- Maybe an helium-filled inflated lander with smoke "rockets", pulled down by a string, landing in a plume of smoke on a base.
- Large speakers to simulate the "sounds" of rockets landing and taking off.

The base would look similar to Japan's planned lunar robot base (http://www.weirdwarp.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Robot-Moon-Base.jpg). Or it might look something like this (http://www.digitalspace.com/projects/lunar-telerobotics/proposal/index_files/image062.jpg).


Here are the components as I imagine them.

Simulated Lunar Surface
A gray rectangular or circular tarp could be laid down on a flat surface. It would be painted so as to have similar colors to the lunar surface. Fiberglass craters are placed on the tarp. They are painted exactly like the tarp is painted. Gray sand is laid around the craters to hide the seams. It would look like this (http://masten-space.com/images/pad2.jpg) but be much larger.

Falcon 1 - Inflatable
A rectangular piece of opaque white plastic fused into a cylinder and with round plastic fused at each end. It would have a logo painted on it. The nose cone could be two pieces of fiberglass shapes (so that they stack nicely) and are bolted together and positioned and the end of the inflated cylinder. It would be inflated with a fan which would pump air into it. Hopefully it could be pumped with enough air to make it fairly rigid although there may need to be strings around the cylinder to ensure that it doesn't overinflate so that the center of the rocket bulges.

Although a Falcon 9 Heavy would be the actual craft, it is probably too large (even in an uninflated form) to pack into a large trailer. So my thought is to have an inflatable Falcon 1 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/SpaceX_falcon_in_warehouse.jpg) but, maybe, show right next to the tail rocket the cluster of 9 rockets (http://www.spacex.com/assets/img/20090108_elonf9.jpg) which a Falcon 9 has. Note: The tail end could be a simplified version of the rocket engines. They could be just a bell which can be screwed in to a painted, round piece of plywood at the end of the inflated cylinder.

Small Lunar Lander
Based somewhat on a winner of the Google Lunar Lander X-Prize (http://carriedaway.blogs.com/carried_away/images/img_0423.jpg), the lunar lander could be made from inflatable, spray-painted beach balls or split fiberglass spheres. If they were inflated with helium, it might be possible to demonstrate the lander landing simply by pulling it down with a clear fishing line string. Smoke bombs could simulate retrorockets. IF it could land on a raised platform and if there was enough space underneath, then a robonaut could climb from under the platform into the lander and appear (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFPNcWN7QnM) (as if by magic) from within the lander even though he never came down in it.

Extracting Water by Heating Polar Ice
Mirrors would be cardboard with, maybe, mylar mirror film glued to one side. Supports would be sturdy. The direction of the mirrors could be remotely controlled so that several mirrors could demonstrate how the sun's rays can be focused on regolith, raising temperatures to where evaporation / steam arises to be captured.

The robonaut would lay out a clear plastic covering (with grommets around the edge (http://wildonionstudio.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/grommets-in-place.jpg?w=405&h=540)) and connect a hose. The robonaut would then partially seal the plastic to the ground with spikes through the grommets. It could also move some regolith over the edge to provide a better seal. As the mirrors heat the soil, a fan pumps air underneath the sheet demonstrating "steam" being produced. That steam is carried by hose to a nearby condenser and compressor so that liquid water is stored in storage containers. Hoses carrying smoke could produce "steam" under the clear plastic covering. A water hose coming into the condenser could show water collecting in the water storage container.

Storage Containers
Fiberglass hemispheres and a flexible but firm plastic sheet formed and attached to make storage cylinders for high-pressure (e.g. cryogenic) materials. For the water container, it could be a plastic cylinder inflated with helium if we it is going to "lift off".

Regolith Extraction (for metals & oxygen)
A working device based upon the Regolith Excavation Challenge (http://gaiaselene.com/Home/Thumbnails/RegolithChallenge.jpg) winner. A RC truck conveys the regolith to a simulated oven (may need to be powered by a small nuclear reactor). "Glowing" metal "pours" from the oven into cast molds (http://images.spaceref.com/news/2009/wingo.base.jpg) to form basic building block structures. The pouring hot metal could be redish rotating foil pulled down by a clear nylon string.

Robonaut
A skinny guy wearing a full-body sock with exoskeleton parts sewed to the sock. The guy must act in a "robotic" manner! He could either be in a remotely controlled buggy (http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/Spinoff2008/images/ct-11.jpeg) or walk as a biped (http://www.21stcentury.co.uk/images/robotics/honda_asimo_robot.jpg).

Telepresence
There would be two cameras on the helmet of the robonaut. The images are sent by CCTV or radio link to a base. They could probably be viewed in 3D somehow with the kids wearing 3D glasses (e.g. polarized or red/blue). There could even be a virtual reality headset (http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/virtual-reality-8.jpg) which one kid at a time could wear and "control" the robonaut. To do this the robonaut would also have a headset and would mimic whatever the kid was doing. Any time delay would be explained by "the speed of light". The other kids wearing the 3D glasses would be seeing exactly what the kid wearing the headset and the robonaut were seeing. If done correctly, most all kids would be able to virtually control the robonaut in about 1 minute increments.

Lunar Resources to LEO
For the sake of making the argument that SSD is not just inspiration, I would also suggest having a model of a craft which would return lunar water or other resources to LEO. In my mind this means a craft with a heat shield (http://contribute.chron.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/8/fc5f2726-ee91-4bdb-88ff-abd141f815a9.Full.jpg) for aerocapture.

Financing
Any one piece shouldn't be too expensive for an individual. I would hope that it could all be constructed with volunteer labor. As for materials, I think that it would be nice if someone were to be willing to offer money to that individual who successfully completed each piece of simulated equipment. Upon completion, if it passes criteria of realism, durability, and compactibility, then they would be paid a pre-determined amount for parts (at least).

I would imagine that the team which travels could be volunteer and their travel expenses (e.g. gas) could be covered by the schools.

[joertexas]

I think that I have just come up with a practical way to energize the public (and shame the policy makers) into making Sustainable Space Development (SSD) a priority.

How about we each construct a mock-up of one of the pieces of equipment necessary for an SSD scenario.



This idea dovetails neatly with the requirement to construct mockups for testing and mission training, too :)

JR

[JohnHunt]

> This idea dovetails neatly with the requirement to construct mockups for testing and mission training, too

What requirement?

[Sam Fraser]

John, this is a great post full of ideas to consider and links to check. If only the kids could vote! :cool:

[joertexas]

> This idea dovetails neatly with the requirement to construct mockups for testing and mission training, too

What requirement?

The one that says we will have to build mockups and testbeds to see if our cool drawings depict functional machines. ;)

Seriously, we will need to not only test the equipment designs, but we will also need to train the remote operators on the rovers, the lander, and the orbiter.

JR

[Mark Prado]

This also has considerable publicity value, if the public relations is done right.

When PERMANENT was contacted in the past by media sources, they usually asked right off the bat whether we had any videos and animations they could use. Judging from the collection of responses I gave -- from offering free advice on the verbage content, existing static artwork, and [vaporware] custom 3D animation -- the responses were very strongly positive on the animations, lukewarm on the artwork as a distant second, and practically nil on the text concepts. (Interest in personal interviews died when they found out I am in Asia, not the USA.)

Actually, there are a lot of concepts which could be illustrated by 3D modeling and animations, including put up on YouTube these days.

Putting together this physical model is a good idea. However, there needs to be a lot of forethought in all the time, effort, and monetary resources which must be committed to putting together all the hardware, considering all the elements. Then, a detailed project plan must be put together, with milestones and management responsibilities, together with a cost estimate. At that point, commitments need to be made.

As it is a physical project, it nails us down geographically.

This should be compared to a similar virtual project with 3D modeling and animations.

For both, a considerable amount of student manpower and resources could be utilized.

There were some student competitions organized in the past, which could be project models to study at the outset.

If I may add ... over the past month, I've been working with a personally hired programmer to put together a bibliographic database of serious professional publications on utilizing lunar and asteroidal resources, and have ported about 200 references from my old database to the new one (out of 500 total), on top of which we will add new references over the past 10 years. (Right now, the database and programming still have some bugs and cosmetics to fix up, so it's not public yet.) Anyway, there are many concepts which could also use artistic demonstrations and/or could be the seed for projects.

[joertexas]

Actually, there are a lot of concepts which could be illustrated by 3D modeling and animations, including put up on YouTube these days.



I've been using a program called 3D Canvas for my designs. The basic version is free at www.amabilis.com

The Pro version is about $70USD and it works fairly well, with a few crashes which are probably more due to my machine than the program. It can also do animations and very good renderings.

JR

[JohnHunt]

I think that there are six levels at which this can be developed.

Level 1 - 3D Modeling
Level 2 - Desktop Construction
Level 3 - Educational Mock-ups
Level 4 - Simulation Development
Level 5 - Concept Testing
Level 6 - Actual Development

Level 1- 3D Modeling is what Mark is talking about. The nice thing about this approach is that, if done well, it can be a low cost (in terms of money, not time!) approach which would illustrate the concept, give a sense of professionalism, and be in a digital format which can be broadly distributed.

Level 2 - Desktop Construction. We all can do this. It would be a small scale model using cardboard from cereal boxes and plastic from shopping bags. It would probably be good to go through this phase before developing the educational mock-ups so at to spare experimentation and expensive waste.

Level 3 - Educational Mock-ups. This is what I have described in the start of this thread. This is full-size, taken around and set up at schools. It would have tremendous public appeal and probably easily draw local and even national media attention to the concept of Sustainable Space Development (SSD).

Level 4 - Concept Testing - I'm not sure that it is the right term. But this is along the lines of Mars 500 where you have real-size but inexpensive models which you can use to test basic designs and develop protocols.

Levels 1-4 can be done using relatively low-budgets and volunteer help.

Level 5 - Actual Development - Fairly expensive, NASA, SpaceX, or X-Prize-level budgets with the end result being usable equipment to perform the actual mission.


I am thinking about starting the Level 2 approach myself.

[JohnHunt]

If one were to create a full-size mock-up of a Falcon 1 which could be inflated at schools, what would it cost?

Well, the body could be made out of white plastic. Home Depot sells 20x100 (4 mm) sheets for $106. The Falcon 1 is 5.5 ft diameter by 70 feet long. So one roll should have it covered. 5.5 diameter ends would require two 4x8 plywood sheets totaling about $30.

So far so good. But what about the nose cose and the engines? I thought that making a fiberglass nose cone would be the way to go. But when I started looking up prices it looked like it might be in the neighborhood of $1,000. I wonder if any of you guys know of an inexpensive, compact, yet durable approach?

[joertexas]

If one were to create a full-size mock-up of a Falcon 1 which could be inflated at schools, what would it cost?

Well, the body could be made out of white plastic. Home Depot sells 20x100 (4 mm) sheets for $106. The Falcon 1 is 5.5 ft diameter by 70 feet long. So one roll should have it covered. 5.5 diameter ends would require two 4x8 plywood sheets totaling about $30.

So far so good. But what about the nose cose and the engines? I thought that making a fiberglass nose cone would be the way to go. But when I started looking up prices it looked like it might be in the neighborhood of $1,000. I wonder if any of you guys know of an inexpensive, compact, yet durable approach?

If you're wanting an inflatable model, then that would have to be made out of the same fabric that other inflatable items are made from. You could check with a manufacturer to see what the material costs. Also, we'd need SpaceX's blessing to use their vehicle's image.

JR

[joertexas]

Level 2 - Desktop Construction. We all can do this. It would be a small scale model using cardboard from cereal boxes and plastic from shopping bags. It would probably be good to go through this phase before developing the educational mock-ups so at to spare experimentation and expensive waste.


I am thinking about starting the Level 2 approach myself.


Your approach will depend on what you want the model to do. There are a ton of options, but even simple mockups could be built using commerically available hobby kits and structural shapes. Your local hobby shop probably has everything you'd need to build whatever model you'd like.

JR

[Sam Fraser]

What about using Mindstorm and Technic Lego since this is a lunar robotic base demonstrator? (I think JR's idea of buying multiple hobby kits is probably practical and cheaper. A lot of old school spaceship model FX from the original Star Wars etc. were often just bits of kit sets cobbled together.)

[JohnHunt]

Let's continue this thread to discuss the modeling aspect of this idea. I'm going to start a new thread looking at how a "Sustainable Space Development Event" could be conducted at a school setting.

To determine what scale we should work at when developing the desktop models, I think that we should base it upon the robonaut. This is because this might be one of the more difficult items to create and because there are many doll/action figure makers out there. However, as I images.google.com searched for robots, usually the action figures are far more complex than the form of a simple robonaut. So, I think that we could try and locate a simple wooden doll (http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/marjanneke/marjanneke0904/marjanneke090400052/4706504.jpg), carve out it's cheeks, paint it dull gold, and paint a shiny gold face mask (http://dissociatedpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/robonaut.jpg) on it.

Whatever that size is, we could make everything else fit that scale.

[JohnHunt]

Also, we'd need SpaceX's blessing to use their vehicle's image

Forget their blessing. I want their money! Imagine the PR value of having a large SpaceX rocket on high school campuses. The value of the local TV coverage ought to be worth a lot. Think about how proud SpaceX's PR department would be to show how they were inspiring kids from all across the US with America's potential in space. Think about how many local congressmen would want to get their picture taken next to that big rocket!

Certainly SpaceX would be willing to help pay for some plastic sheets and paint, you think?

[Mark Prado]

The P.R. value is the main benefit *IF* we do all this ourselves with existing volunteers, whereby we would be quite unlikely to gleaning anything useful from this from an engineering design perspective -- *IF* we do it all ourselves.

HOWEVER:

We could get a serious financial donor by helping with THEIR P.R. For example, the large Japanese construction companies Shimizu and Obiyashi funded internal paper design studies into moon construction, with artwork having their logos on it. We could do the same with other multinational companies in the mining business, interior design business, etc. -- enhance their professional image.

To do this, we would need to go to the very top of these companies, the creative movers and shapers who make these kinds of decisions for promoting the image of their companies.

(Yes, and add them to our database of contacts and people to research ...)

As for the real design, before we do anything, we must review the existing professional literature, and forward copies of relevant professional papers and reports to them. It both helps establish our credibility (we're not Star Trekkies but are really serious and professional) as well as gives them the state of the art thinking in the field so that whatever they do is most useful in advancing our goals.

Choose your fields of interest:

Mining and materials processing -- industrial sponsors

Low earth orbit hotels and condos -- architects, interior design firms, etc.

... any other ideas?

My main points here are:

1. This could be useful for getting support in mutually beneficial, sustainable ways.

2. To actually do something useful to advance our goals, we must engage experienced professionals and also bring them up to speed on the state of the art thinking by other professional minds as regards space considerations of their field of specialization.

[Mark Prado]

In the wild ideas department, I will go ahead and throw one in, with the caveat that good ideas are ten cents a dozen, and what counts is the expense, time, effort, and skill to implement them.

So my ten pence, non-expence idea to write here is this:

Create a kid's toy set for lunar base construction, and make some money at it while also getting some branding and publicity, for us and any other sponsors.

This is not a new idea, and actually I had an interest in educational toys a long time ago. Parents will spend a lot of money for education and educational toys, and most of what I see at the toy shops is of little value.

(I also happen to be talking with an Australian associate interested in importing educational toys which have some design improvements, but it's only at the talk phase right now. Also, about 10 years ago, I did research plastic toy makers, the designers and the factories, of which there are many in a particular region in suburban Bangkok, and met a Director and a few of the engineers ...)

The first step would be coming up with a conceptual design and proposal.

The main problem we have is what we don't have: the experience people who can turn out a design and proposal quickly. However, like so many other things, the best way to gain these skills and the experience is by just doing it.

I appreciate JR's suggestion for a user friendly 3D program with a short learning curve, but someone has to do it ... though that seems like a lot of fun and a good lifelong skill to have.

I do want to emphasize that this toys idea is just an idea. If it turns somebody on, great, I'm happy to work with you on it, if I think something will really come of it, but others will be doing the lion's share of the work.

We need to have some version of the Serenity Prayer in what we do, e.g.,

Goodness grant us the
courage to do the things we can,
recognition of the things that are probably time wasting,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Actually, it comes down to the manpower with The Right Stuff:

True commitment
Resourcefulness -- finding the right people with the right skills, interests, values, and partner commitment
Strategic partner monetary, production, marketing, and management resources
People skills to make all this happen and work as a team with a wide variety of other kinds of people (and cultures)
Perseverance to completion

[JohnHunt]

Hi Mark,

I do think that we need to have a complete, well-designed mission scenario from which to create the 3D images, the toys, and the full-size inflatable event. My honest question is this, can those of us here agree upon what that mission scenario should be? If we differ in our views, how can one concept emerge as the most meritorious?

My "Sustainable Space Development" (SSD) concept which has crystalized in my mind over the past 3-4 months (thanks in large part to our dialogue here) is very specific. I have tried hard to read broadly and e-mail or post specific questions to knowledge people. But we really need a good, professional evaluation / development of the plan to determine for sure what the best architecture should be and therefore what the various pieces of equipment should be.

I see the toy idea as being a significant revenue stream. It's not a wild idea at all. From an educational standpoint, it could be generally educating. If kids get a box with the components and a story book about how it works, great. But mostly kids will use their imagination and use them to attack each other (making explosion noises). You know kids!

Regarding sponsors. My thinking is that we approach those who have the most to gain by the actual implementation of the concept. I don't see SSD as being a one-time PR stunt. The ones positioned to be routine participants in the architecture would be:
- Medium-lift launches - SpaceX, Orbital, & others
- Lunar landers - Armadillo & Masten
- Robonaut - GM

Also maybe corporations for:
- Orbital fuel depo stations
- LEO refueling / repairs (e.g. battery exchanging)
- LEO to GEO transfers (OTV)
- GEO repairs
- EDS
- Actual lunar mining operations (water ice & metals could be separate entities)
- SPSs (using lunar-derived materials)
- Lunar greenhouse (the Moon Society seems to be at the most advanced stage),
- Eventually manned lunar landing operations

Probably Space Adventures would be in the picture as well (e.g. circum-lunar & lunar hotel tourism)

Bigelow may need some supplies from the Moon for their LEO hotels but especially for any lunar orbital or lunar surface hotels.

I would also throw in X-Prize.

Basically, it would be a Who's Who of New Space. I would tend to approach them first but would be open to mining companies or even interior design? companies if that became necessary.

[JohnHunt]

P.S. I have pieced together pictures from various sources to create a somewhat realistic depiction of what the full-size inflatable SSD event would look like. How can I post that picture when it is on my hard drive and not on the internet somewhere?

[Sam Fraser]

When you post a reply, click the "Manage Attachments" button further down and upload from your HD that way. That's how I uploaded the asteroid probe pic below. Make sure the image is in JPG format, so it can be up to 100k in size. (Other image format have much lower limits. I'll check with Mark on how to increase that limit to 500k or something more practical.)

[Mark Prado]

I do think that we need to have a complete, well-designed mission scenario from which to create the 3D images, the toys, and the full-size inflatable event.

The toy part must be a separate project with mainly symbolic meaning.

Serious 3D design artwork for serious space development designs are not something we can reproduce in a toy. However, the 3D models can have snapshots on the box, and there can be some sort of educational video DVD enclosed.

The toys can do some simple things.

It could be modular, like the Japanese train sets I see at the shopping malls. You buy the basic one to get your feet wet. Then you can separately buy extra track and switches, train cars, stations, and maybe some gadgets.

Just a wild idea to start with:

Have a circular plastic mat that has an image printed on it which looks like the moon, so they don't get the floor dirty.

A mining vehicle could have remote control, like today's remote control helicopters and cars.

They can go mine the sand on the beach or the dirt in their back yard, actually. However, we could ship bags of dry powdery and clumpy clay-like stuff which has magnetic granules in it.

The mining vehicle can bring the dirt to the beneficiator, which has a real grinder and a real magnetic separator, and conveyor belt.

Maybe this clay and the granules powder will dissolve in water and have a water soluble binder.

There are molds to produce various parts, mainly trusses which mate with each other. Just a few parts to be mass produced ... can be used to build things with triangular elements, anything from a building to a geodesic sphere, or a powersat or other product's structure.

Could have a plastic loop you can hang from the ceiling like one big orbit, and it has points where you can attach things, like little powersats with mirrors to beam light and electricity to the lunar surface, docking vehicles, space station, etc., and you can spin the loop (and it will oscillate back and forth over time).

A lunar rocket can plug into the space station, just insert and twist, or something like that.

Inflatable habitats.

Have you ever made a baking powder and vinegar rocket? Why not add one?

My honest question is this, can those of us here agree upon what that mission scenario should be? If we differ in our views, how can one concept emerge as the most meritorious?

There will always be disagreements, but I don't think any on entity will make all this happen. We need to conform to standards, such as docking.

Actually, the most meritorious is the one which gets implemented.

Good ideas are a ten cents per dozen, but before we go to any higher up, we should come up with a presentable proposal.

Parents will invest in educational toys; that is a well established trend.

This toy set is about their childrens' real future in life.

It's also pretty cool for adults, too.

And it could get us considerable outreach publicity in the market.

It's not the actual engineering design. It is purely public relations, and maybe some seed money in profits which ... should be reinvested in PERMANENT, not lost one way and another ...

[JohnHunt]

Sam (or RaesH),

How did RaesH incorporate a large picture in his post as in here:
http://www.forumlog.com/nanobiotechnologyspace/showthread.php?t=302

[JohnHunt]

Hey Mark, I am thinking that this toy discussion is big enough to warrant it's own thread. Can you start a new thread, port your comments over to it, I can do the same, and then we can take it from there?

[Rhyshaelkan]

Sam (or RaesH),

How did RaesH incorporate a large picture in his post as in here:
http://www.forumlog.com/nanobiotechnologyspace/showthread.php?t=302

I see you found out how to use img tags. :thumbsup: I was going to point you to my thread here (http://www.forumlog.com/nanobiotechnologyspace/showthread.php?t=374).

[JohnHunt]

In case you guys are no aware of it, I have started a new thread about a SSD event at high schools. It includes a picture showing what it might look like. That link is at: http://www.forumlog.com/nanobiotechnologyspace/showthread.php?t=445

[JohnHunt]

Just an update on progress towards developing a mock-up of a Falcon 1.

I went to Home Depot and looked at their sheets of plastic. None were exactly the size that I needed but not too far from what I would eventually need. Unfortunately, none were actually white (only clear or black). They typically come in 3.5 or 4 mm thickness. I think that the plastic is not the main issue.

Sealing is where things get interesting. I purchased 5 feet of double-sided, foam tape and a tube of glue for a calking gun. I tried the double-sided tape first on 5 feet of the plastic. Essentially I made a ball of about 3 feet in diameter. I had to bunch the open ends up and then "seal" them with a wrench. But along the lenth it was the tape which sealed it. It seeled adequately although I think that there could have been a bit of leak. But one could probably keep the "rocket" inflated just by periodically adding some extra air.

Next, I tried to see if I could seal a much longer tube of plastic using the tube of glue. Unfortunately, after it dried, the glue did not stick to the plastic hardly at all. The plastic was to smooth and the glue was more like Elmer's Glue than something which was still sticky when dry.

The tape is more expensive (still within budget) but seems to do the trick pretty well.

I hope to order the white plastic of the right width and length that I found on the Internet, enough double-sided tape, and then do it proper. However, I still need to figure out how to make a nose cose which would be light enough and not deflate.

I could have something looking a fair bit like a real Falcon 1 sitting in my back yard. What fun!

[JohnHunt]

Oh, I did take a picture of the 3 foot diameter ball which I'll try to download from my phone & paste up here.

[JohnHunt]

Even a portion of the full robotic base might be news worthy. I think that it could possible that a news report could be written such as, "Local Man Builds His Own 80 Foot Rocket -- Sort Of".

Any ideas how to make it sufficiently rigid so that the rocket doesn't just blow over? At a school, the rocket could be placed in a gym and could look fairly realistic. Lots of kids would take pictures of it and share those on Facebook thereby spreading the word (virally).

Joe, How much would it take to make a full-scale mock-up of your lunar lander? and the rovers could be the RC rock crawlers.

Mark, besides books, might PERMANENT sell inflatable rockets as well to raise money for the PERMANENT Foundation?

[joertexas]

Joe, How much would it take to make a full-scale mock-up of your lunar lander? and the rovers could be the RC rock crawlers.




The lander is intentionally a very simple design, so it isn't hard to fabricate. PVC pipe would do for the framework, and foam insulation board would do nicely for the body panels. It's rigid, light, easy to work with, and reasonably tough.

If we wanted to make it more durable, Gatorplast would be a great material. That's a dense foam core with styrene laminated to both sides. It's used to make signs, and it's fairly resistant to damage.

The backhoe would be more complex to make, but the other rovers are RC truck rock crawlers. They aren't that cheap, but it is doable.

JR

[JohnHunt]

The backhoe would be more complex to make, but the other rovers are RC truck rock crawlers. They aren't that cheap, but it is doable.

As an example, on Ebay I am seeing that they are selling some rock crawlers for $57.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Radio-Control-4x4-Off-Road-Rock-Crawler-RC-Truck-RTR-RC-/260672790831?pt=Radio_Control_Vehicles&hash=item3cb14f212f#ht_3026wt_936). We could get up to four of them.

Now, they probably aren't totally metal but for illustration / PR purposes, they would probably work fine. But, if we wanted to use them for both the actual mission and PR purposes then we'd need to pony up $200 - $300 a piece (http://www.redcatracing.com/RC-Cars/Rock-Crawlers/Rockslide-RS10-1-10-Scale-Crawler).

[joertexas]

As an example, on Ebay I am seeing that they are selling some rock crawlers for $57.00 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Radio-Control-4x4-Off-Road-Rock-Crawler-RC-Truck-RTR-RC-/260672790831?pt=Radio_Control_Vehicles&hash=item3cb14f212f#ht_3026wt_936). We could get up to four of them.

Now, they probably aren't totally metal but for illustration / PR purposes, they would probably work fine. But, if we wanted to use them for both the actual mission and PR purposes then we'd need to pony up $200 - $300 a piece (http://www.redcatracing.com/RC-Cars/Rock-Crawlers/Rockslide-RS10-1-10-Scale-Crawler).


The cheaper ones don't have the right suspension linkages, so they aren't quite as impressive in their climbing abilities. Still, they will do the job quite nicely, I think.

JR

[JohnHunt]

Joe, Do you have an RC rock crawler?

[joertexas]

Joe, Do you have an RC rock crawler?

No, I don't - unfortunately.

JR

[JohnHunt]

I would be willing to donate $60 towards that. Would that help move things along?

[RaresH]

Sam (or RaesH),

How did RaesH incorporate a large picture in his post as in here:
http://www.forumlog.com/nanobiotechnologyspace/showthread.php?t=302

Hi John,

I simply linked to the image stored on my ftp. You can do this by using the yellow 'insert image; button in the message window whenever you reply or start a new thread. A window will then pop up prompting you to add the address to the image stored online.

[joertexas]

I would be willing to donate $60 towards that. Would that help move things along?

It will, when I can afford to match that donation. PERMANENT does have not-for-profit status, I believe, so you can get a tax break for your donations.

JR

[JohnHunt]

How much is needed total?

And is there anyone else who would like to join me in supporting the purchase of the rock crawler?

[Sam Fraser]

I can chip in a few bucks if either John or Joe has PayPal.

[joertexas]

How much is needed total?

And is there anyone else who would like to join me in supporting the purchase of the rock crawler?


The price, inlcuding a battery, radio and shipping (or sales tax if purchased locally in the US) will be around $300. This truck (http://www.tcscrawlers.com/Axial-AX10-Scorpion-RTC-Ready-to-Crawl-AX90011-p-17397.html)might be a good one to purchase...

[JohnHunt]

By my reading between the lines, it doesn't look like we have enough money between us to purchase the rock crawler. Is this how y'all see it?

[joertexas]

By my reading between the lines, it doesn't look like we have enough money between us to purchase the rock crawler. Is this how y'all see it?

I can manage at least $60 by the end of the year toward it. I'll contribute more if I can.

I looked at both a basic crawler, a standard model, and a high end model. The prices are about $300, $450, and $600, respectively for running vehicles.

JR

[JohnHunt]

How big a difference (in terms of usefulness for us) do you think each have?

I might take an extra shift at work and then donate that towards this effort.

[joertexas]

How big a difference (in terms of usefulness for us) do you think each have?

I might take an extra shift at work and then donate that towards this effort.


I'm working on the business plan for the mining project, but it will probably require a professional writer to prepare the final product. We need to promote the mission to pay this and other expenses.

Will the crawler materially help promote the mission right now, or should we direct our efforts elsewhere? If you think the crawler will help, I'll be glad to contribute what I can to it. For now, the basic model should get the point across just fine.

JR

[JohnHunt]

If it doesn't take too long to modify the crawler to appear like the final form then I think that it would be worth it to get it sooner than later. Being able to demonstrate working equipment gives significant credibility, draws attention, and word-of-mouth advertising. As you develop the plans and designs, having pictures and YouTubes of working equipment, those images can make people willing to consider the less exciting plans.

[joertexas]

If it doesn't take too long to modify the crawler to appear like the final form then I think that it would be worth it to get it sooner than later. Being able to demonstrate working equipment gives significant credibility, draws attention, and word-of-mouth advertising. As you develop the plans and designs, having pictures and YouTubes of working equipment, those images can make people willing to consider the less exciting plans.

Okay, I'm sold on it. Let me see what I can do over the next couple of months. If you're not familiar with RC vehicles, you may want to take a trip to your local hobby shop and start asking questions.

JR

[JohnHunt]

Okay, I'm sold on it. Let me see what I can do over the next couple of months.

Good, but I'm a bit unclear. What are you going to do over the next couple of months? And with what level of vehicle?

[joertexas]

Good, but I'm a bit unclear. What are you going to do over the next couple of months? And with what level of vehicle?

I think I can contribute money to help you purchase a rock crawler, since you're working on the mockups. Your nearby hobby shop would likely carry a selection of rock crawlers for you to choose from.

JR

[RaresH]

As I understand it, we are building a mock-up miner to demonstrate the feasibility of such a device, not a demonstrator of any design we've yet agreed upon?

I do know NASA has covered a national student competition on this subject. maybe we can use the footage to help meet our outreach goals.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/podcasting/nasaedge/NE00062810_Live@Lunabotics_Best.html

[joertexas]

As I understand it, we are building a mock-up miner to demonstrate the feasibility of such a device, not a demonstrator of any design we've yet agreed upon?

I think John is planning to create a mockup to aid in promoting the first mission. The rock crawlers (suitably modified) are the vehicles I think we should use for the rovers.

JR

[JohnHunt]

I think John is planning to create a mockup to aid in promoting the first mission. The rock crawlers (suitably modified) are the vehicles I think we should use for the rovers.

To add to the confusion...I think that RaresH was referring to the RC rock crawler either being an illustrative version (to generate interest) versus something that could actually be sent to the Moon. I also have this question.

[JohnHunt]

Incidentally, I have on order white plastic of 20ft x 100ft. Given that a Falcon 1 is 5.5 ft diameter and 81 ft in length, this should be just the right size.

Unfortunately, I attempted another adhesive to see if it would work any better than my previous attempt. I used contact cement (think rubber cement). It was still sticky when "dry" but didn't hold worth anything. Unless I can find a better adhesive to hold the plastic in the shape of a cylinder and be air tight, then I'll just have to go with the double-sided foam tape. It probably won't be completely airtight but I think good enough to maintain it's shape with the occasional pumping of air.

I don't know if there is a "market" for a full-sized inflatable Falcon 1 but if an aerospace dad wanted to impress his kid's classmates, an fully inflated Falcon 1 in the gym should do the trick! If I could sell it for $500 then the profit could go a long ways towards the purchase of a rock crawler.

[joertexas]

To add to the confusion...I think that RaresH was referring to the RC rock crawler either being an illustrative version (to generate interest) versus something that could actually be sent to the Moon. I also have this question.

I would like to use modified high quality rock crawlers as the actual moon scout rovers, and a larger version as the comms rover. These units would be reengineered as needed for the mission.

So, the vehicle we are discussing isn't so much a mockup as proof of concept for the mission.

JR

[JohnHunt]

So, the vehicle we are discussing isn't so much a mockup as proof of concept for the mission.

...but not the actual hardware that would fly to the Moon? How would you imagine that the final hardware would be built?

[RaresH]

I like you're off the shelf thinking about using existing designs to build on to be cost effective. However, we have to be careful about selling a model as proof of end concept at such an early stage unless it's just an early test bed. We are stepping in uncharted territory when it comes to mining the surface of the moon. This means the requirements may demand a more unconventional design to meet any mining goals efficiently.

If all were trying to do here then is to outreach by showing what a miner might be like then a mock up would be sufficient. I don't see any problem with testing out our ideas though. It could help us find affordable solutions.

[joertexas]

...but not the actual hardware that would fly to the Moon? How would you imagine that the final hardware would be built?

In regards to the scout rovers, the off-the-shelf rock crawler would have to be modified to operate in vacuum and at very low temperatures. I don't know exactly what changes must be made, though. That will be determined in the R&D phase of the mission.

JR

[joertexas]

I like you're off the shelf thinking about using existing designs to build on to be cost effective. However, we have to be careful about selling a model as proof of end concept at such an early stage unless it's just an early test bed. We are stepping in uncharted territory when it comes to mining the surface of the moon. This means the requirements may demand a more unconventional design to meet any mining goals efficiently.

If all were trying to do here then is to outreach by showing what a miner might be like then a mock up would be sufficient. I don't see any problem with testing out our ideas though. It could help us find affordable solutions.

Well, this first mission is more about exploration than actual mining. I'm more concerned with mobility and accessiblity than I am with moving material at this stage. I agree that these models would be test beds leading into the full R&D stage of the mission as we obtain funding.

JR