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JohnHunt
07-05-2010, 12:15 AM
I am guessing that NASAs new direction will be as follows:
1) Constellation will largely be terminated,
2) The Space Shuttle program will not be extended,
3) The ISS will be extended for an additional 5 years,
4) Ares I will be continued as an escape capsule for the ISS,
5) Commercial Crew Transport will be fully funded and be successful,
6) Development of a heavy lift vehicle will be initiated earlier than later. The controversy about what form it should take will continue. The development of the heavy lift vehicle will not be entirely according to the new commercial approach,
7) A lot of money will be spent on technology projects which will only modestly improve the entire plan,
8) Manned space flight will be to the ISS initially and then to an asteroid (about 2030) and then to a martian moon (about 2035),
9) A manned Mars mission will happen about 2045,
10) It will take 10 years for a martian base the size of the ISS to be built and it will have to be supported largely from launches from Earth,
11) A self-supporting martian base will be achieved at about 2075.

1) I support the cancellation of Constellation (Ares I, V, & Altair) but I don't support the apparent cancellation of the concept of returning to the Moon. I think that we should. However, I think that it should be funded at a much reduced level than Constellation and that funding should be in the form to incentivize US commercial companies to develop cis-lunar space and the Moon for both commercial and NASAs exploration's purposes.

2) I support the Space Shuttle not being extended (it is expensive, dangerous, and the Russians and SpaceX will adequately replace crew transport).

3) I don't support the extension of the ISS by 5 years. It's expensive. I think that most of the research that we need to do can be accomplished by 2015. Rather, I think that the ISS should be sold to a company or country(ies) in 2015 and possibly be maintained and converted into an orbital hotel and orbital laboratory / manufacturing.

4) I don't support the continued development of Ares I as an escape capsule. I think that this was a political consolation prize. That role can be played by a Soyuz capsule or commercial capsule (e.g. SpaceX's Dragon).

5) I support the full funding of Commercial Crew Transport (CCT). It:
- is a fairly cheap back-up to Russia's Soyuz,
- will open up orbital tourism,
- commercial medium lifters will be essential to cis-lunar development and distant manned missions,

6) I don't support the development of a heavy lift rocket. First, I don't believe that it's actually necessary. We can lift the entire upper stack of an Apollo mission in a Falcon 9 Heavy IF the stack is unfueled and then fuel it in LEO from lunar-sourced rocket fuel.

7) By-in-large, we should avoid politically-correct, environmentally-oriented, or diplomacy projects. Technologic spin-offs should be justified by return-on-investment calculations. Partnering with other countries should be justified by whether such partnerships achieve strategic goals in a cost-effective way. We already spent $100 billion on the ISS and a large part of the motivation to extend the ISS is because we have international partners. Imagine what $120 billion could have done to develop fuel depots, orbital tugs, automated lunar landers, lunar water extraction, etc. Instead we've got an expensive albatross that was originally scheduled to be dispatched into the ocean in something like 5 years.

Yes, there could be some justification for spending money on things like VASIMR, a space nuclear power plant, etc. But we should make very certain that they are actually needed.

8-11) I wish that manned missions to an asteroid and martian moons would not be done. These are very expensive flag planting and boot print exercises which do only a little to get us to where we need to go. More importantly they will take a whole lot of money away from the development of cis-lunar space and so we'll be saddled with having to lift a great deal of fuel to LEO from Earth until 2075 or until some smart Chinese or Russian-speaking nation sells lunar-based rocket-fuel to us for a considerable mark-up.

Yes, Mars is the eventual goal for manned colonization. I just believe that we shouldn't wait until 2075 for an off-Earth self-sufficient base. Rather, I'd like to see one on the Moon by about 2030.

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RATHER, I wish that the unnecessary and/or wasteful parts of Constellation and Obama's Flexible Path were eliminated and that the remaining funds largely be used to incentivize commercial companies to develop cis-lunar space and extract resources from the lunar surface. This will develop a cis-lunar market and greatly facilitate all other space goals (including manned missions beyond the Moon and SPSs).

New technologies which I would like to see completed and implemented would be automated lunar landers, ascenders, aerobraking and delivery of lunar resources to LEO. Extraction of lunar water ice (or if impossible) extraction of lunar oxygen in eventual quantities sufficient to fuel Earth Departure Stages. Also, the extraction and purification of metals within cis-lunar space (that includes the lunar surface). Teleoperated robotics (including Robbie the Robonaut) but also including earth movers.

Automated preparation for a manned landing on the Moon including The Moon Society's effort to develop a lunar greenhouse. Robbie could harvest, prep, and dry food material. Sufficient carbon, nitrogen, (and perhaps hydrogen) could easily be delivered (if need be) to the lunar surface via a lunar lander.

A pretty low-mass manned lunar lander. This would be the same lander used to deliver equipment earlier but in a manned configuration. It would require no ascending fuel (that would be provided on the Moon), no duplicated fuel tanks or rockets, and may not even need a shell if a landing pad were constructed.

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HOWEVER, it seems to me that America MUST have a manned mission and that it must be novel. It appears as though that mission might not be to the Moon. So, even though I think manned missions to an asteroid and a martian moon is an unhelpful waste of money and years, I would be willing to allow that IF there is still at least some NASA financial incentivizing of commercial cis-lunar development. If a heavy lift rocket is developed then there may be no money left over for the commercial development of cis-lunar space.

JohnHunt
07-05-2010, 12:40 AM
OK, it just dawned on me a simple way of looking at this. We have our choices. They are mutually exclusive.

FLEXIBLE PATH
- Ares I escape capsule
- Heavy lift rocket
- Manned missions to asteroid & martian moon
- Various technology development projects

OR

COMMERCIAL SPACE DEVELOPMENT & OPENING
- Commercial development of cis-lunar and lunar space
- Space Power Satellites
- Very large geosynchronous communication satellites
- Less expensive but maybe later manned missions beyond the Moon including Mars
- Earlier off-Earth self-supporting base
- Earlier democratization of space

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THE DOWNSIDE OF THE FLEXIBLE PATH APPROACH
- Slowed progress due to the lack of inexpensive Earth Departure Stage fuel and therefore the risk of program cancellation due to cost overruns.
- Delayed democratization of space.
- Lack of international participation as the other countries head to the Moon first. Potential cis-lunar market going to another country.
- Missed opportunity for Earth-based benefits such as SPSs and huge GEO communication satellites.
- Decades-long window where there is not an off-Earth self-supporting base/colony at the time when we expect self-replicating technology to be emerging.

THE DOWNSIDE OF THE COMMERCIAL SPACE OPENING
- Less glory / inspiration for not having gone to a novel location.
- Earlier preparation for landing on Mars.

Boy, is that it?

Setbacks with the loss of astronauts life could go either way. Flexible Path astronauts would be the governments possibly by a slow suffocating death in deep space unable to get back in time. It might be due to an equipment failure which had not been cleared through multiple, previous non-manned missions.

Commercial's astronauts might be that of a company but might have happened during landing using a scaled-down (as so arguably more dangerous) lunar lander. However, that lunar lander would have had multiple successful automated cargo landings before a human is placed on it.

Overall, I think that there is a greater risk to astronauts with the Flexible Path.

Sam Fraser
07-07-2010, 05:32 PM
Sorry, John, you may not like NASA's new direction:

NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said in a recent interview that his "foremost" mission as the head of America's space exploration agency is to improve relations with the Muslim world.

"When I became the NASA administrator -- or before I became the NASA administrator -- [Obama] charged me with three things. One was he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math, he wanted me to expand our international relationships, and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering," Bolden said in the interview.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/05/nasa-chief-frontier-better-relations-muslims/

joertexas
07-07-2010, 09:47 PM
Sorry, John, you may not like NASA's new direction:

NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said in a recent interview that his "foremost" mission as the head of America's space exploration agency is to improve relations with the Muslim world.

"When I became the NASA administrator -- or before I became the NASA administrator -- [Obama] charged me with three things. One was he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math, he wanted me to expand our international relationships, and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering," Bolden said in the interview.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/05/nasa-chief-frontier-better-relations-muslims/

Okay, what other planet are the Muslims located on? Oh, wait, they're right here on Terra Firma with the rest of us...

This is silly, IMO. I don't care what group they're reaching out to - it could be middle aged white guys, and my response would be the same. This is *NASA* - our *space* agency, being concerned with politics that have squat to do with space exploration.

<sigh>

JR

JohnHunt
07-07-2010, 10:53 PM
I agree with you guys on not just the Muslim priority but also the other two goals: 1) Inspiring children, and 2) International cooperation. These are good but drive us into expensive and IMO non-productive ventures. It leads us to manned exploration at the loss of space development. But I think that space development is the future.

But further, I think that we can inspire children by (for example) having Robbie the Robonaut visiting their schools. Other countries get plenty of their kids to go into math and science careers without having a manned space program. The "inspiring kids" angle is being overplayed and should not be allowed to take away from space development as a priority.

Regarding international cooperation, I find it ironic that the direction that the Obama administration is going is actually contrary to the goal of international cooperation (the ISS excepted). As far as I know, no other country has indicated that they want to be partners in ventures to an asteroid, a martian moon, or AFAIK on a joint venture to Mars. However, the other countries want to go to the Moon because they "haven't been there before". There is more cooperation to be had going to the Moon.

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But I am wondering if you guys would be willing to comment on my earlier posts in this thread. Do you agree with the probability of my predictions as to what will happen given an Obama administration, a Democratic congress, and statements that have been made? Also, do you agree that there is somewhat of a zero-sum game whereby choosing to do the full likely Obama direction will leave no money for space development?

moonus111
07-07-2010, 11:31 PM
This just in NASA to change it's facilities to porno production. Out of a need to reach out to the female half of the species NASA has gone through a fundamental change, since the organization is largely dominated by male influence their efforts may be misguided. Hopefully this change in strategy gains them some support from the female voter groups. However, there are critics of the move. Some even go as far as to state that it will alienate females.

It's silly, let the big men attempt to get their headlines. Sure, the Muslim world lacks when it comes to space, it's obvious why the guy made the statement. Coalitions need to be built, and it just sounds silly when we hear it. I'd love to hear the opinion of one of those crazy "Obama wants to turn America Muslim" people. It'd make for some great entertainment on TV, or Youtube.