Dirty Dozen Mission Update

[joertexas]

I'm still working on the missions - both manned and unmanned. At the moment, I'm waiting to obtain a 30-day trial of Free Flyer:

http://www.ai-solutions.com/freeflyer

I'm hoping that I can generate accurate mission profiles for the unmanned and manned missions before my trial period runs out. An accurate profile involves plotting the target asteroids' launch windows, and obtaining the exact Delta Vee requirements for missions to each asteroid.

The next step is to begin work on a probe prototype. I will be contacting manufacturers for specs and, possibly, samples or non-working examples of items like fuel tanks and thrusters. This step also involves gathering materials and the electronics needed for the mission.

As for the manned mission, I'm looking for qualified advisors to aid in formulating the mission requirements - from spacecraft structural design to food storage and everything in between. There is a truckload of material on the subject, much more than I can ever hope to assimilate on my own.

JR

[Rhyshaelkan]

Whoa. Now that looks like some cool software.

[joertexas]

Whoa. Now that looks like some cool software.

The question is: Can I figure out how to use it and get results in 30 days?

JR

[Rhyshaelkan]

That is the big question. Almost like learning a new language.

I am facing something similar trying to write a script to automate a program I use for my investing.

[Sam Fraser]

That program looks pretty awesome. What is the price? I don't see any obvious pricing information or links. Also, JR, it might be less overwhelming for you to focus a simple robotic probe mission for now, although that SpaceX update you also posted with the Dragon hardware sure does whet the appetite!

[joertexas]

That program looks pretty awesome. What is the price? I don't see any obvious pricing information or links. Also, JR, it might be less overwhelming for you to focus a simple robotic probe mission for now, although that SpaceX update you also posted with the Dragon hardware sure does whet the appetite!

The trajectory data will work for both missions, and I'm still focused on the unmanned probes as the first goal - my enthusiasm for the manned mission notwithstanding :)

After I verify the delta vee, launch window and flight time, it will be time to assemble the prototype. If anyone wants to help, please contact me :)

JR

[joertexas]

The trajectory data will work for both missions, and I'm still focused on the unmanned probes as the first goal - my enthusiasm for the manned mission notwithstanding :)

After I verify the delta vee, launch window and flight time, it will be time to assemble the prototype. If anyone wants to help, please contact me :)

JR

Okay, I'm not having any luck with this program - it requires a programmer, and I'm not skilled in that area.

What I need is someone with the programming skills to figure this program out, and someone with enough math skill to calculate orbits.

JR

[AeroSpike]

Haha, this is almost exactly what I'm trying to do for my senior design, except my mission if full on manned. AGI's STK software would also help you out in this instance. I'm trying to use it right now as we speak. I'm currently attempting to use JPL's horizon database server to create am ephemeris asteroid file that STK can read.

The thing is, simple transfer orbits like Hohmann are easy to calculate but arn't very useful for a manned mission to an asteroid. The travel times are simply too large. You need something complicated and the best way to optimize a complicated route is to let the computer do it, and for that I need to get STK to model the asteroid's orbit.

[joertexas]

Haha, this is almost exactly what I'm trying to do for my senior design, except my mission if full on manned. AGI's STK software would also help you out in this instance. I'm trying to use it right now as we speak. I'm currently attempting to use JPL's horizon database server to create am ephemeris asteroid file that STK can read.

The thing is, simple transfer orbits like Hohmann are easy to calculate but arn't very useful for a manned mission to an asteroid. The travel times are simply too large. You need something complicated and the best way to optimize a complicated route is to let the computer do it, and for that I need to get STK to model the asteroid's orbit.

I don't know that we'll be able to use anything much more energetic than a Hohmann due to the mass ratio. I don't want to expose the crew any more than necessary, but it'll still be a long trip.

JR

[AeroSpike]

You're right, the mass ratio and amount of propellant we throw up into space is key. The Ares V could do it if they ever built it. My current mission architecture is loosely based on two Ares V lite launches.

[joertexas]

You're right, the mass ratio and amount of propellant we throw up into space is key. The Ares V could do it if they ever built it. My current mission architecture is loosely based on two Ares V lite launches.

I've been using the Falcon 9 Heavy as the main launch vehicle, since Space X is nearly ready to fly a Falcon 9. They've got a (short) track record with two successful flights to orbit - which is a lot more than the Ares project has done to date.

JR

[Rhyshaelkan]

So as of 02/12/09 d/m/y.


Silver $19.20 USD
Gold $1212 USD
Platinum $1497 USD


Sucks that we are not 'bringing home' the shipments of PGMs yet. Market is ripe for selling a few contracts.

Returning 20 tonnes of platinum would help recoup some of the investment.
20 mt = 705479.242oz
705479*1497=1056102063

$1.056B USD

Depending on the cost of your mission. The probe, the mining equipment, refining equipment, possible fuel sources for an OTV, fabrication of an ablative reentry shield from materials on the asteroid. Habitation and life-support for a manned mission(I am still not in favor of a manned mission).


I know the shit can hit the fan, and that is a major proponent for a manned mission. Something simple unforeseen could waste millions in investors money. Where one plus human might make all the difference.

On the other hand the shit could hit the fan in the form of a radiation burst that catches the crew flat-footed. And they all die shortly thereafter.

Rather getting off-topic from what I want. However, were it a manned mission I would suggest the entire habitation module for said asteroid mission be capable of withstanding a strong burst from Sol. Unless there is a proof positive way to detect an incoming burst in time to get to the shelter.

I should make up a mission to NEA decision tree which tracks the biggest difference in methods that of manned and unmanned. Both have their positives and negatives. Both could be a monumental failure for a simply corrected problem.

[joertexas]

So as of 02/12/09 d/m/y.


Silver $19.20 USD
Gold $1212 USD
Platinum $1497 USD


Sucks that we are not 'bringing home' the shipments of PGMs yet. Market is ripe for selling a few contracts.

Returning 20 tonnes of platinum would help recoup some of the investment.
20 mt = 705479.242oz
705479*1497=1056102063

$1.056B USD

Depending on the cost of your mission. The probe, the mining equipment, refining equipment, possible fuel sources for an OTV, fabrication of an ablative reentry shield from materials on the asteroid. Habitation and life-support for a manned mission(I am still not in favor of a manned mission).


I know the shit can hit the fan, and that is a major proponent for a manned mission. Something simple unforeseen could waste millions in investors money. Where one plus human might make all the difference.

On the other hand the shit could hit the fan in the form of a radiation burst that catches the crew flat-footed. And they all die shortly thereafter.

Rather getting off-topic from what I want. However, were it a manned mission I would suggest the entire habitation module for said asteroid mission be capable of withstanding a strong burst from Sol. Unless there is a proof positive way to detect an incoming burst in time to get to the shelter.

I should make up a mission to NEA decision tree which tracks the biggest difference in methods that of manned and unmanned. Both have their positives and negatives. Both could be a monumental failure for a simply corrected problem.

As I understand it, a fairly small amount of water can stop a good amount of radiation. One idea I had was to simply store potable water in a double hull on the hab module. It could even be transferred from a holding tank to the double hull after reaching orbit, if needed.

My back of the envelope planning indicates a total mission cost of $1.8 billion. Between the publicity, promotions, and the potential value of returned minerals, the initial mission should come in at about even money. Then, the follow-on missions would start turning a profit.

The biggest issue we face in the longer term is, to put it simply, that our rockets have terrible gas mileage. It's like commuting to work in a Tiger tank. We first must get there, and get back with some product to show for the effort. But, we must also earnestly strive to find a better thruster system, and/or aid in its development, testing and deployment.

I know that a manned mission is an order of magnitude more complex - and dangerous, but I will point out that, while Pioneer and Voyager were major accomplishments, Apollo captured the world's imagination.

JR

[Phenix]

I do perfectly agree with you Rhys as we are not yet or maybe nerver at a state to say the Infrastructures, products and spacecrafts are "Anti-radiation certified" for mankind. It would even be much of an egocentrist to say that Infrastructures, products and spacecrafts are "Natural Earth's anti-radiation certified" in space.

I am sure as we forsee Internationally the best suggestions on the radiation shielding applications, and proven as being "good enough" to say that Infrastructures, products and spacecrafts are "Anti-radiation compatible" ;).

I believe in what Joe is heading for and the HUGE income from the Medias and other indirect incomes like what Apollo missions have generated. I am much more optimistic than Joe's precautious forecast of even incomes as ALL OVER the WORLD many would want to go for Space Development and pay for it to become extremely wealthy.

Remember, the Californian gold farwest ....

[Rhyshaelkan]

Water will be vital for a manned mission. Why not store it in the shell of the craft in mutiple self-sealing tanks. The sheer density of water does help cut down radiation. As well as provide heating and cooling of the craft.

Excellent solution for a manned mission.

[joertexas]

Water will be vital for a manned mission. Why not store it in the shell of the craft in mutiple self-sealing tanks. The sheer density of water does help cut down radiation. As well as provide heating and cooling of the craft.

Excellent solution for a manned mission.

Precisely.

JR

[joertexas]

Happy New Year!

At the moment, I am working on the problem of generating orbit plots and launch windows for the target asteroids. Until I know exactly what the delta vee requirements are to intercept each asteroid and what the optimum launch windows are, I cannot move forward with the mission design. The energy requirements drive every other aspect of the mission, since it dictates how much mass can be taken to the asteroid.

So, if any of you math majors/programmers are willing to assist me, please reply here.

Thanks,

JR

[RaresH]

Happy New Year everyone!! Hears to a fruitful one.

[joertexas]

If anyone here knows how to calculate and plot trajectories, please contact me. I could use the help, and I'm stuck until I can get better numbers...

JR

[RaresH]

I take it you already have your Delta v cost using Δesc = sqrt[ (2 * G * Pm) / Pr ]. This assuming you've already selected some targets and their mass and mean radii are known.

I can't help you with plotting as I'm still learning the basics :). I surpise myself that I even know how to calculate delta v now. Wish me luck.

[joertexas]

I take it you already have your Delta v cost using Δesc = sqrt[ (2 * G * Pm) / Pr ]. This assuming you've already selected some targets and their mass and mean radii are known.

I can't help you with plotting as I'm still learning the basics :). I surpise myself that I even know how to calculate delta v now. Wish me luck.

I have the Delta Vee costs from some JPL data listing the closest asteroids from the standpoint of energy required to reach them. That data doesn't help me much with launch windows and mission times, I'm afraid. Without that data, I can't go on with the mission design.

JR

[RaresH]

If we have the orbit information including orbit period we can probably calculate the launch window as well, right?

Also, does the falcon 9 launcher have the acceleration to enter into a launch to Hohmann burn? I suspect not but if it is possible our delta v requirement would be reduced.

[joertexas]

If we have the orbit information including orbit period we can probably calculate the launch window as well, right?

Also, does the falcon 9 launcher have the acceleration to enter into a launch to Hohmann burn? I suspect not but if it is possible our delta v requirement would be reduced.

1) Yes, that's correct, but we also need to calculate the DV for the spacecraft. Now, we do have close approach data for any asteroid we care to research, and I suspect that the launch windows will correspond to those events. We even have relative velocity information, and I further suspect that the lower the relative velocity between the asteroid and Earth, the lower the intercept DV will be.

2) No, because the mining craft will have to be assembled in orbit, with several F9 Heavy launches. We will be pushing the launchers to their limit just to lift the parts into LEO. You are correct that the escape energy requirement could be shared with the launcher, but that isn't possible in this case.

JR