Engine : Mass propulsion

[Phenix]

I would say that mass propulsion engine concept is my favorite over propellant propulsion engines to function only with electricity to create momentum for linear translation for propulsion.

There are concepts being based on momentum to shout an object a single time, attitude adjustement :

- Mass Driver "Slingshot" at http://www.permanent.com/t-massdr.htm
- Reaction wheel and Mementum wheel at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_wheel

But none of those concepts are related to propulsion. I would like to share with you my views of mass propulsion as a facinating, sustainable engine concept for highest possible business incomes for Orbital to Orbital transportation.

Flywheel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel) is the fondation for momentum for Reaction wheel that is for spacecraft angular momentum change.

Assumption 1

Now imagine that during flywheel turns at a regular frequency you add more mass one side and then reduce mass on the opposite side at the same time like an unbalanced wheel, you will have then the momentum for linear translation for propulsion. An all in 1 engine with angular momentum if the flywheel is balanced.

More the wheel is unbalanced more linear momentun you'll get. Put those flyweels in parallel on opposite rotation and all flyweels are unbalanced at the same time you even have a dual mass propulsion engine that make the spacecraft rotate on angle change of the unbalanced wheel.

I was thinking that the nanotech could shape the wheel at will. Maybe Bluesteel can help me finalize this and announce if this kind of engine could be born on short term :cool:.

[Phenix]

Assumption 2

I was thinking of using arc'ed coils with magnets being like a cyclotron.
Inside the cyclotron, floating using the magnetic field, confined within an circular tube, minerals of 1mm or less in size having high density sand like, would look as a wheel rotating in side the cyclotron.

This high density constellation of material would form a balanced wheel in motion.

To unbalance the wheel and create a linear momentum at a certain frequency, arc'ed coils of the cyclotron would be submitted to an intensity that would slow down a part of the wheel for a very short time.

I wonder if any has experimented this only theorical device as far as I know.

[Phenix]

I have finally got the link for what I was thinking, those MIT folks are brillant :)

http://ssl.mit.edu/emff/index.html

It is simply fascinating. The technology is there and no more need of using chemical propulsion engines for inter orbital travels....

We have here a real self sustainable propulsion system.

[RaresH]

I have finally got the link for what I was thinking, those MIT folks are brillant :)

http://ssl.mit.edu/emff/index.html

It is simply fascinating. The technology is there and no more need of using chemical propulsion engines for inter orbital travels....

We have here a real self sustainable propulsion system.


Well kinda...That looks like an electromagnetic system that work in relation to one or more like devices. That is satellites using such technology will move around one another by the manipulation of electromagnetic poles. I don't think it will allow for traveling a set distance effectively necessary for interplanetary travel.

[Phenix]

Hey RaresH, Glad to see your input on this one :)

Could you elaborate and tell us why it would not be fitted for propulsion ?

Thanks

[Sabion]

Hey RaresH, Glad to see your input on this one :)

Could you elaborate and tell us why it would not be fitted for propulsion ?

Thanks

I was unconvinced about the propulsion potential of this technology as well. From what I can gather about the system it is only a change in relation from one "Pod" to another. While you could use this once to give you an initial push you could not thereafter change your vector using the magnets.

In the MIT demonstration the Pods where reacting to the magnets of the other. You could use this to flock these units, which would be great for orbital manufacturing and assembly. If you assume that future space ships will have a large magnetic "shield" to ward off radiation, this would be an excellent technology to use for EVA suits or repair bots or other such uses.

I could even envision the ability of using these Pods to navigate within Earth's own magnetic field given high enough Tesla magnets. It would follow the natural lines of polar north and south to change orbits even directions. But once the Pod is alone away from other reactive Pods or a natural gravity field, they would be dead in space.

I would like to see a flock of these pods circling small asteroids, using the gravity of the ones in orbit to lift materials from the rock and accelerate it toward a similar flock in Earth or Lunar orbit for manufacturing.

I think that my understanding or newton stands up here but I be way off base.

[RaresH]

Hey RaresH, Glad to see your input on this one :)

Could you elaborate and tell us why it would not be fitted for propulsion ?

Thanks

I was about to say something similar to Sabion so he pretty much covered it. I think it's a great piece of technology too and it looks to be very utilitarian as far as industry in space goes. It just might not cut it as a 'space truck' is all, to put it crudely.

[joertexas]

I was unconvinced about the propulsion potential of this technology as well. From what I can gather about the system it is only a change in relation from one "Pod" to another. While you could use this once to give you an initial push you could not thereafter change your vector using the magnets.

In the MIT demonstration the Pods where reacting to the magnets of the other. You could use this to flock these units, which would be great for orbital manufacturing and assembly. If you assume that future space ships will have a large magnetic "shield" to ward off radiation, this would be an excellent technology to use for EVA suits or repair bots or other such uses.

I could even envision the ability of using these Pods to navigate within Earth's own magnetic field given high enough Tesla magnets. It would follow the natural lines of polar north and south to change orbits even directions. But once the Pod is alone away from other reactive Pods or a natural gravity field, they would be dead in space.

I would like to see a flock of these pods circling small asteroids, using the gravity of the ones in orbit to lift materials from the rock and accelerate it toward a similar flock in Earth or Lunar orbit for manufacturing.

I think that my understanding or newton stands up here but I be way off base.

I think you're right on target. The drive field is reacting against another nearby field. It's the same as laying two magnets next to each other on an air hockey table. If you bring one into close proximity to another, they will both react according to the orientation of their magnetic fields - either attracting or repelling. However, once they are too far away - or connected - there is no more force being exterted on the magnets.

These devices are great for maneuvering, thus saving fuel, but they are not propulsive devices.

JR

[Phenix]

Thanks a lot for all your thoughts out there :).

You are absolutely right on the fact that when the "Pods" are far away from each one they would lose the ability to interact one over the other.

On the propulsion side, I was thinking backwards, the "Pods" would be forming a sort of tunnel and the spacecraft having one "Pod" being fixed on would be moving through the corridor. A space highway of Pods :).

I was also thinking in adapting the Pod concept with Assumption 2 I did made previously, thus putting in place the momentum necessary for propulsion on each of the coil wheels would be perfectly suited for Joe's multi-prob project. Though that has to be demonstrated for real.

For assembling parts for huge scale space structures, those "Tug Pods" would be ideal. Those "Tug Pods" in spheric formation would also manouver the mining machinery over the asteroid surface.

As a primary urgent application, I would think that those "Tug Pods" would be useful to cleanup and bag the space trash surrounding our beloved planet.

How about that ?

[Phenix]

Ferrofluid could be the rotating mass (confined within an insulated ring) within the cyclotron (magnetic ring) from the assumption 2.

On any magnetic ring edge, a magnetic field can be shaped to densify the Ferrofluid during a short periodic time thus creating the "unbalancement" of the rotating Ferrofluid mass. I would name that "the ferrofluid linear momentum impulse".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrofluid

Also, NASA is doing research (wikipedia):

Aerospace
NASA has experimented using ferrofluids in a closed loop as the basis for a spacecraft's attitude control system. A magnetic field is applied to a loop of ferrofluid to change the angular momentum and influence the rotation of the spacecraft.

Intersting application also in :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum

Off-topic, but some amazing artistic ferrofluid creation can be found here to grasp the idea of what can be done with ferrofluid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDnrFgd7yfo&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d44LW6KZ_iU&feature=related